Curse

Mouse at Large · Nov 15, 2010, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Nice idea - I'd possibly tweak it to "for 3 seconds plus one second for each point in ES"

Ensign · Nov 15, 2010, 07:29 PM // 19:29

It was a tongue-in-cheek reference to AoHM being dumb, and saying that there's no need to keep making reasonable suggestions. I know the numbers weren't spot on.

33% armor penetration would be stronger than AoHM I think. Against a 60 armor target it'd be +41% damage, and it'd be a whole lot more than that against hard mode mobs. 50% armor pen is +68% damage against 60 armor mobs and scaling up from there...

I think the AoHM non-stacking is important; the game makes a point of excluding buff stacks for good reason. It's just a really good self-buff. Asura Scan is the bigger problem though, since it multiplies everything, including the super-buffs.

Comparing a standalone Ele's damage to a buffed physical isn't ever going to be one where the Ele will be competitive. But the damage credit for the buffs should go to the caster, not the physical; similarly some fraction of that damage should be credited to the support structure (cleaning) that's needed to keep it going - the main argument against PUG physicals is that it is very difficult to find players trained to perform those cleaning and support roles. Caster damage is valuable because it doesn't require those buffs or support structure.

By the WiK treatment I just mean that mobs don't get more armor from it being Hard Mode; you still hit hard mode caster mobs for full damage in WiK and it plays a lot better. The whole extra armor from hard mode buff doesn't make things harder as much as shifts the balance even further towards armor ignoring damage, to the point that it's all that anyone really runs. That can't have been the intent.

NerfHerder · Nov 16, 2010, 09:30 AM // 09:30

I'm starting to like the idea of Intensity changing your Ele skills to Armor Ignoring. From a strictly DPS point of view, it would be a better fix than giving Armor Penetration. The damage would be the same in NM or HM. It would just be wierd that Eles in PvE wouldnt do Elemental Damage anymore. Oh well, just because they summon their power from the elements, nothing says they have to always deal ele dmg.

Enchantment spell. For ....seconds +..... seconds for every rank of Energy Storage, damage from your elementalist skills ignore armor. Failure unless Energy Storage is 5 or more.

As long as its maintainable, that should cover all the bases. Only problem is this fix seems too easy to implement and would fix the HM ele dmg issue and power creep lag. So I doubt Anet will do it.

LifeInfusion · Nov 16, 2010, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Oh another reason why I want ele damage to exceed 50 is I can just wear my Draconic spear or Wintergreen Bow, slap 15 channeling on a rit hero and spam splinter on myself (because there's no physicals, just casters and ranger/paragon) and do more damage than Fire magic. Plus I don't waste a slot so I can run ER or what have you.

In fact I can spec 12 channeling myself and do 41 damage with splinter weapon.

That's not even accounting for ancestor's Rage ignoring armor also. (There's no melee so can't use it as well.)

Cuilan · Nov 16, 2010, 06:22 PM // 18:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by NerfHerder

I'm starting to like the idea of Intensity changing your Ele skills to Armor Ignoring.

How would you then buff all the other casters?

Xenomortis · Nov 16, 2010, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

How would you then buff all the other casters?

You wouldn't need to.
The strength Necs, Rits (and Mesmers I suppose) aren't coming from access to armour ignoring direct nukes.

Lanier · Nov 16, 2010, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Rather than giving intensity armor ignoring damage, I would far rather see the monster-buffing mechanics of hard mode tweaked a bit. Take aways the +armor that monsters get in HM and replace it with more +health. I doubt it would be tough to do since all they would have to do is change the HM mechanics (much in the same way they did with monster casting times to make interrupts useable in HM during the mesmer update). This is a far, far better method than making intensity an armor penetration skill because:

1. This would make elemental damage heroes more useable rather than depending solely on the rit, necro, and mesmer hero's armor ignoring damage options.

2. This would help out all of the casters (except mesmers) rather than just elementalists. Channeling builds (with skills like channeled strike, gaze from beyond, spirit burn, etc.) would become move viable options compared to spirit spam. Necromancer's cold damage options (deathly swarm, deathly chill, toxic chill, icy veins, etc.) would offer more competition to the armor-ignoring damage skills like discord. Zealots Fire would become a viable option for smite monks. Derv spells like mystic sandstorm and sand shards would become viable options in place of scythe builds.

Chthon · Nov 17, 2010, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Rather than giving intensity armor ignoring damage, I would far rather see the monster-buffing mechanics of hard mode tweaked a bit. Take aways the +armor that monsters get in HM and replace it with more +health. I doubt it would be tough to do since all they would have to do is change the HM mechanics (much in the same way they did with monster casting times to make interrupts useable in HM during the mesmer update). This is a far, far better method than making intensity an armor penetration skill because:

1. This would make elemental damage heroes more useable rather than depending solely on the rit, necro, and mesmer hero's armor ignoring damage options.

2. This would help out all of the casters (except mesmers) rather than just elementalists. Channeling builds (with skills like channeled strike, gaze from beyond, spirit burn, etc.) would become move viable options compared to spirit spam. Necromancer's cold damage options (deathly swarm, deathly chill, toxic chill, icy veins, etc.) would offer more competition to the armor-ignoring damage skills like discord. Zealots Fire would become a viable option for smite monks. Derv spells like mystic sandstorm and sand shards would become viable options in place of scythe builds.

I think it's commonly agreed that this is the "right" answer. Or, as Ensign phrased it "the WiK treatment."

I think it's also commonly agreed that the odds a very low that a-net would ever put in the work to "do it right."

Within the realm of quick-and-dirty solutions, making Intensity serve as some sort counter to insane monster armor seems to be the way to go.

-----------------------

Regarding having Intensity convert your damage to armor-ignoring:
1. Feels really bad when the elementalist doesn't even do elemental damage...
2. Also bypasses monster class bonuses, which means that you hit would warrior/ranger/gon monsters a lot harder than previously intended.
That said, I certainly do see the appeal of the idea.

Let me float another possibility:

Intensity
10e, .75c, 25r
"For 3 sec plus 2sec for each rank of Energy Storage your elementalist skills do 20...32%* more damage, plus additional damage against high-leveled foes.**"

* Actually use the same baseline increase formula as AoHM, so the actual damage improvement will be the same ~41...~71%. (actually, that might be too strong...)

** Foe gets -3AL for each level over 20, but not reduced lower than 80 for war/ranger/gon, 70for sin/derv, or 60 for casters.

Lanier · Nov 17, 2010, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I think it's commonly agreed that this is the "right" answer. Or, as Ensign phrased it "the WiK treatment."

I think it's also commonly agreed that the odds a very low that a-net would ever put in the work to "do it right."

Why not? It obviously isn't impossibly time consuming as anet changed a HM mechanic with the mesmer update (at a time when they were also working on a plethora of skill changes and the WiK stuff).

Mashiyu · Nov 17, 2010, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

1. Feels really bad when the elementalist doesn't even do elemental damage...

Not all armor-ignoring damage is typeless. For example Dust Trap deals armor-ignoring earth damage - it's armor-ignoring (doh!) and triggers Mantra of Earth. I believe the same applies to the bonus-damage from Mirror of Ice: It's armor-ignoring cold damage.

The real question is why would anyone need +X AL against elemental damage. (... but it doesn't really matter, since players never fight against eles with Intensity)

AndrewSX · Nov 17, 2010, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

....but it doesn't really matter, since players never fight against eles with Intensity.

This is why Intensity can be buffed(a lot

): it wouldn't create any problem to pvp and won't make Ele bosses too much strong in HM, like would happen buffing the base damage of single skills(there're tons of threads about this), or linking armor penetration/damage buff to En Storage or Attributes/Attunements (think about Bogruus Blisterbarrk in HM...with maybe 20 in ES....brr

).

Tought this some general skill rework would be fine....(Second Wind above all, for example).

Chthon · Nov 18, 2010, 03:05 AM // 03:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Why not? It obviously isn't impossibly time consuming as anet changed a HM mechanic with the mesmer update (at a time when they were also working on a plethora of skill changes and the WiK stuff).

1. It's not a HM mechanic. It's defined per-monster. Most (but not all) of them just get armor per level.

2. Changing the AL on all of the monsters down to sane levels would probably only take a few days. But if you stop there, all you've done is make the game massively easier. The reason WiK worked is because the monsters had decent individual builds with enough variety and robustness that they also made decent team builds when thrown together. That made the mobs hard enough to be a challenge even with normal armor ratings. Without adding back some "good" difficulty to replace the pumped stats you're taking away, the game is left too easy. Implementing that "good" difficulty is the time-consuming part.

Lanier · Nov 18, 2010, 03:22 AM // 03:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

1. It's not a HM mechanic. It's defined per-monster. Most (but not all) of them just get armor per level.

2. Changing the AL on all of the monsters down to sane levels would probably only take a few days. But if you stop there, all you've done is make the game massively easier. The reason WiK worked is because the monsters had decent individual builds with enough variety and robustness that they also made decent team builds when thrown together. That made the mobs hard enough to be a challenge even with normal armor ratings. Without adding back some "good" difficulty to replace the pumped stats you're taking away, the game is left too easy. Implementing that "good" difficulty is the time-consuming part.

Are you sure that its not a hard mode mechanic? I thought that monsters had x percent higher armor in HM, similar to how they all had x percent higher attack speed, x percent higher health, x percent higher casting time, etc.

Regardless, if changing the AL on all of the monsters would only take a few days, then raising the health on all the monsters to compensate would only take a few more days. I didnt suggest just lowering the armor. I suggested lowering the armor and raising the health to compensate. Technically then, elemental damage wouldn't be damaging any larger of a percent of a monster's health than it already is, but it would give a larger yellow number and its damage would be more comperable to that of armor ignoring damage.

I fail to see how the WiK mobs have anything to do with what im talking about.

NerfHerder · Nov 18, 2010, 08:14 AM // 08:14

I would rather see HM monsters get a buff, not a nerf. Same with Eles. Changing HM monsters AL is a rediculous order to appease just Elementalists.

Adding more health? Spoil Victor says "Hi"! Personally I think the AL and Health of HM monsters is fine where it is. They need better builds and maybe some tweaked AI. See how well the WiK mobs did w/o the AL bonuses? Eles on the other hand need a buff when compared to other PvE casters. Increasing Intensity's damage potential would be an easy way of buffing PvE Eles w/o rewriting and balancing all their skills. How to buff Intensity is obviously debatable.

If its only the Ele that have issues in HM, dont change HM, change the Eles.

Chthon · Nov 18, 2010, 09:26 AM // 09:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Are you sure that its not a hard mode mechanic? I thought that monsters had x percent higher armor in HM, similar to how they all had x percent higher attack speed, x percent higher health, x percent higher casting time, etc.

Positive. Monsters just have lvl*3 + class_bonus +/- race_bonus AL unless they've been specially defined otherwise. You just notice it in HM b/c all the monsters get a level boost. (Specially defined monsters seem to have a NM and a HM definition.)

Quote:

Regardless, if changing the AL on all of the monsters would only take a few days, then raising the health on all the monsters to compensate would only take a few more days. I didnt suggest just lowering the armor. I suggested lowering the armor and raising the health to compensate. Technically then, elemental damage wouldn't be damaging any larger of a percent of a monster's health than it already is, but it would give a larger yellow number and its damage would be more comperable to that of armor ignoring damage.

That's not a good way to compensate.... at all. For one thing, you'd muck up the balance on every skill that cares about % max hp -- PS, everything that effects foes/allies above/under 50% hp (WoH, Needling Shot, etc.), every health sac skill (Blood Renewal gets worse the more max hp you have, etc.), and probably more things that I can't think of right now -- and also every skill that cares about comparative hp (gogo Spoil Victor (vs monster), not so much Chilling Victory (vs monster)). For another thing, you'd be effecting a huge nerf to armor-ignoring damage, which is bad because armor-ignoring damage is not the location of the problem (and is, in fact, relatively close to balanced). For a third thing, you'd need to re-evaluate everything with a hard timer (like every Factions bonus) or a soft timer (do X before NPC reaches his destination and gets killed) to see if it remains possible/appropriately difficult now that there's a mountain more monster hp that needs to be cleared within the time limit (and you've just nerfed the best way to clear it). The list could go on from there, but I'm too tired to think. That should be enough of a description of the tip of the iceberg for you to see why sweeping changes to difficulty that don't break more than they fix aren't an easy thing to design. And that's what we're dealing with here -- a design problem, not an implementation problem.

Quote:

I fail to see how the WiK mobs have anything to do with what im talking about.

Unlike most mobs, WiK mobs did not receive the customary 3AL/lvl. They all had standard armor levels for their classes and better builds to compensate. That is the right approach for increasing difficulty. Unfortunately, redesigning ALL the mobs to use better builds -- especially the mono-mobs where every monster has the same build -- is a gigantic task. Which brings me back to my previous comment: there's no realistic way we're going to see that from a-net, so let's talk about the best option for a quick-n-dirty fix.

Lanier · Nov 18, 2010, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Unlike most mobs, WiK mobs did not receive the customary 3AL/lvl. They all had standard armor levels for their classes and better builds to compensate. That is the right approach for increasing difficulty. Unfortunately, redesigning ALL the mobs to use better builds -- especially the mono-mobs where every monster has the same build -- is a gigantic task. Which brings me back to my previous comment: there's no realistic way we're going to see that from a-net, so let's talk about the best option for a quick-n-dirty fix.

Interesting... I didnt know that. You know what would be cool is if anet did a massive overhall of monster builds but instead of taking time to do it themselves, they asked for build submissions (similar to when they did the PvP henchmen update) and chose the "best" (in their opinion) to pass down to the test krewe for extensive testing. I dont know how this would work... but a "WiK" treatment would be awesome.

On a more practical note, I would rather see a universal PvE skill (norn, asura, vanguard, dwarven) get buffed with an armor penetration (or whatever...) suggestion, instead of intensity. This would allow other professions that use elemental damage (the before-mentioned rits, dervs, monks, and necros) as well. At the very least, if intensity was to recieve some treatment, dont limit the armor penetration to elementalist skills so that these professions can spec their secondary into ele to get some use out of intensity.

As for making intensity armor penetration or armor ignoring, I am going to have to strongly side with giving armor penetration. Armor ignoring would give a massive, massive buff to elementalists, and I think we should take updating eles at a little bit of a slower pace, rather than immediately shooting them up to the most powerful profession spot. Plus, even the measly +25% ar penetration that air magic gives is good enough to reach the number listed on the skill icon (vs. casters). Imo, it shouldnt go over +30% at the maximum.

LifeInfusion · Dec 10, 2010, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Invoke Lightning in HM, post Dec 9th update

72 kournan guard
101 irontooth drake (140 after cracked armor, same as orb)
68 kournan bowman
101 kournan zealot
70 kournan field commander
53 kournan phalanx with SYG
72 kournan phalanx
116 kournan scribe

112 ntouka bird, crested ntouka bird
106 steelfang drake
96 rampaging ntouka

83 veldt nephilia (vs 106 orb)

53 stoneaxe heket, beast sworn heket
96 terub roundback
112 blue tongue heket, blood cowl heket
116 kournan oppressor, scribe, priest

106 ridgeback kuskale

112 frigid kuskale, kuskale blighter

106 mandragor slither
112 mandragor imp, stoneflesh mandragor

82 corsair mindreader
106 bladed veldt termite

89 kournan soldier Lvl 20
112 veldt beetle queen
86 veldt beetle lance
86 tusked howler

112 kournan elite scribe
96 elite zealot
51 elite spear (66 with cracked armor) -- stand your ground might have been in effect

These numbers suggest even 25% armor penetration on 106 damage (16 air magic) isn't as much as it seems. It's Lightning orb sans cracked armor.

Cuilan · Dec 10, 2010, 10:57 PM // 22:57

I wonder how is it I get so many 85-150s and even some above 200 in hard mode.

LifeInfusion · Dec 11, 2010, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

I wonder how is it I get so many 85-150s and even some above 200 in hard mode.

BuH? Glyph of elemental power? Cons? Lightbringer in DoA?

It's only casters that you get 80+ usually.

112 ravenous mandragor
86 dune beetle lance
106 mandragor terror
112 awakened acolyte
83 shambling mesa
70 awakened blademaster
112 awakened thought leech
112 awakened head
65 Awakened Gray giant
83 sandstorm crag

Cuilan · Dec 12, 2010, 01:45 AM // 01:45

A ton of cracked armor and BuH/Intensity/GoEP/Elemental Lord 'n friends. Not common but still. A lot of warriors use Healing Signet and you sometimes have foes who are weak to lightning damage.